播客:如何成为一名有效的导师与温迪阿克塞尔罗德

Be More是一个每周一次的一对一播客，由Workday的Patrick Cournoyer主持，关于每个人如何在新的工作世界中茁壮成长。本周我们请来了温迪·阿克塞尔罗德她是Wendy Axelrod博士的执行教练、作家、演讲家和导师。

当导师并不容易。教导、指导和支持他人的责任是巨大的。但这不应该阻止你分享你的知识和经验。

Wendy Axelrod对发展充满热情，是费城著名的人力资源专业人员区域指导计划的创造者和推动者。2017年，她被认定为地区“指导大师”。温迪为公司提供咨询，以加强指导计划，将其作为人才发展战略的关键组成部分。

今天，温蒂分享了她在长达数十年的职业生涯中积累的丰富知识和个人经验。她解释了什么对指导有效，什么对指导无效，同时也分享了她对任何指导计划最关键部分的看法，以及关注意图对成功的关键。

关键的外卖

• 我的导师之旅和第一步。温迪承认，她一直对学习人和心理学很感兴趣。她毕业后获得了组织心理学博士学位，成为了一名企业领导。最终，她做了领导力培养，并领导了一家财富50强公司的企业大学。多年来，温迪咨询了其他企业，并将她的关注点缩小到帮助领导者和管理者为员工提供发展机会。
  
  作为一名志愿者，温迪是费城地区一个广受尊敬的专业协会的主席。在那里，她为该领域的新人创建并实施了一个指导计划。
  
  
• 指导是一个有意的过程。Wendy认为，指导必须是有意的，因为一个有效的导师需要培养一些特质。但也有一些具体的行动是一个有效的导师应该采取和不应该采取的。导师应该关注的两个主要因素是建立关系和发展他人。
  
• 如何培养指导技能?首先，导师需要与学员建立一种安全、值得信赖和尊重的关系。导师既是一个逻辑和心理角色。其次，一个有效的导师知道如何促进被指导者的任务，而不仅仅是解决他们的问题。第三，他们需要提出正确的问题，并仔细倾听学员所说的话。第四，导师需要准备一些开发工具，比如推荐书籍、文章、播客、期刊等。最后，对话和互动需要保持一致，这样导师和被指导者才能定期会面，并就不同的主题进行反思。
  
  
• 建立你成功的指导计划。Wendy说，建立一个成功的指导项目需要知道你想要达到的目的。此外，必须有一个有远见卓识的人来领导这个项目。你需要有一个程序设计和筛选参与者配对的方法。您还需要为所有参与者提供工具，并为导师提供培训系统。然而，Wendy认为导师的培养和发展是所有方面中最重要的。

成绩单

帕特里克我有20年的创建、管理和咨询指导项目的经验，我觉得可以肯定地说，温迪·阿克塞尔罗德是一个真正的指导专业人士。当温迪和我能够调整我们的日程安排，并就她的经历和观点进行了交谈时，我抓住了这个机会，把这一集添加到这一季的Be More中。在接下来的30分钟里，温蒂分享了她在过去20年里获得的丰富知识和个人经验。她解释了什么是有效的，什么是无效的，她认为任何指导计划中最重要的部分是什么，以及关注意图对成功的关键。温蒂，非常感谢你今天参加我们的谈话。

温迪很高兴今天能和你在一起，帕特里克。谢谢你！

帕特里克我很兴奋，因为我们刚刚做了一点准备，我们有很多话要谈。我想和观众分享一下，当我开始和温迪谈话时，我知道我在某个地方认识温迪。我在想，我在想，“我们参加的是一个会议吗?”我说不清是什么原因，但温迪和我觉得在过去15年左右的时间里，我们肯定有过交集。温蒂，我很高兴也很感谢你今天加入我们的谈话。

温迪我也很感激。

帕特里克因为你的职业生涯非常出色，我总是喜欢让你通过自己的语言向观众讲述你的经历。跟我们谈谈你是如何发展你的职业生涯的，以及你是如何开始从事指导工作的，因为我认为这与人们所期望的有点不同。尤其是在指导方面。给我们讲讲你的旅行吧。

温迪谢谢你，帕特里克。我想说，从我十几岁的时候起，我就对更多地了解人和心理学充满了兴趣。然后在我大学三年级的时候，在上了大部分的心理学课程之后，我意识到我不想像我姐姐和我亲爱的朋友们那样，用传统的方法去咨询临床心理学。相反，我想更多地了解人们处于最佳状态时的情况。当时的选择是组织心理学。坦白地说，今天我会选积极心理学，但那是我研究的领域。我拿到了博士学位，开始做公司领导，我做领导力培养，也就是所谓的人才培养。我曾领导过一家财富50强企业大学，并与该公司的高管团队合作，在整个公司范围内实施一些文化变革。我在做大事。多年来，我开始在许多行业担任顾问。 I actually narrowed, narrowed, narrowed my focus more and more to helping leaders and managers understand what it takes, what are the right conditions to really develop other people, and what does it take for them to help people be at their very best? That was the professional side. Meanwhile, on the volunteer side of my life, I was president of a widely respected professional association in the greater Philly area. I created and implemented a mentoring program for the newer folks in the field, and I became a mentor in that program. As we worked that program, we worked on assessing what practices made the difference. The program is now 20 years old. It’s evolved based on what we’ve learned. Many companies in our area have actually copied this program to use internally, or happily, they’ve come to ask me to help shape their programs. I want to say being a mentor has been one of the most growthful, gratifying aspects of my life. A couple years ago, the Association for Talent Development came to me and asked me to write a book for which they already had a title, which was 10 Steps to Successful Mentoring. I said, “I’m already working on a mentoring book. I’m not a 10 steps kind of girl. That is not a cookbook arrangement here.” We worked it out so that it wasn’t going to be 10 sequential steps, but important things that you needed to know. I did the book, and having written it, it’s been an incredible experience for me because I continue to have many more conversations about mentoring, like today, with a much wider set of folks. That’s the journey I’ve taken with this.

帕特里克非常令人印象深刻，温蒂，因为我很高兴你在20年前开始了一个志愿者指导项目，至今仍在运作，已经成长和发展，并取得了巨大的成功。正如你所说，你是多本书的作者，但在最近的一本关于指导的书中，指导的10个步骤。我们将讨论一下有意过程的概念，有意指导，因为你对指导项目，价值，人们如何真正发展指导技能，以及一些非常坦率地说，对指导不好的事情，有一些非常深刻的见解。会导致错误的方向。首先，让我们从这个关于指导是一个有意的过程的想法开始。请告诉我们您是如何将指导视为一个有意的过程的。

温迪:指导是有意的，因为导师需要做一些事情，需要采取一些行动，不应该采取一些行动。我认为你强调得很好。从广义上讲，这实际上涉及两大要素。建立关系，运用发展技能。充分发展另一个人是什么意思?你知道吗，很多时候，导师认为这就是一次愉快的谈话，我们会互相了解，我们会很友好，当你有问题的时候我会在那里，我会帮你解决问题，我们可以好好谈谈，只要知道我会有空，我会在你身边。因此，主要是依靠导师的关系和经验知识来指导被徒弟。这不是我的指导风格。我的导师品牌，以及其他许多人，都是关于建立这种关系，关键。绝对关键。 Yes, you’ve got this deep background, but the distinguishing feature is knowing what they are and how to use the development skills. I think mentors need to build a relationship to be respectful, trustworthy, and safe. They need to know what it takes to create what I call a safe conversational space. When that is established, it’s conducive for opening up a person’s perspective, increasing their self-awareness, and really allowing for risk-taking and experimentation. Those are all things that a mentor who’s being at their best will help that person do. We need to understand who they are. What’s interesting is you need to meet the mentee where they are, not where you expect them to be. I’ve worked with scores of mentors, if not hundreds. Over and over, the mentor reads the profile, and has an idea already about where they want to take the person. Before they’ve even met them. I have one mentor who said, “You’re doing the matching. I’m only going to serve as a mentor if you find me a mentee who has the following qualities.” Imagine that all the preconceptions that that person is making, you are not appreciating and letting unfold what is the uniqueness of that individual. The last thing we want to do is move toward making a mentee a Patrick 2.0 or a Wendy 2.0. We need to meet them where they are, we need to have time to let things unfold. There are a lot of skills around listening, and your presence with them, and your reliability with them that will help to create that trusting, safe relationship.

帕特里克我喜欢你关于冒险的观点，在一个安全的环境中谈论你可能会有的潜力，或者一个人可能会有点害怕，或者不愿意谈论，不愿意经历，甚至不愿意尝试。我真的很喜欢这个想法，能够创造一个环境，让导师和学员都能在一个安全的空间里，能够谈论一些冒险，因为我个人认为，这是成长和发展的重要组成部分，承担一些风险是可以接受的。不完全规避风险。让我们来谈谈如何培养这些技能。你如何看待，如何看待导师技能的发展?

温迪:是的。发展技能，我认为，是最好的导师的关键区别。他们知道，当你用“有意”这个词时，他们知道在培养另一个人的过程中有一种有意的实践。你要帮助别人成长，而不是解决他们的问题。当我们急于给他们一个问题的解决方案时，我们可能会错过他们成长的最佳机会，这是一个审视内心的机会，检查他们自己的想法和感受，确定他们的假设和观点。如果我们快速解决问题，我们就绕过了这一切。我们想给他们上一辈子的课。没有学会解决当前挑战的方法。虽然那也会到来。帮助别人不仅仅是逻辑上的，还必须是心理上的。 We’re increasing their self-awareness, and that is so important. They usually don’t get any of that at work. Once the trust is established, which we talked about as part of the relationship, and they feel respected and safe, they’re going to lean into co-creating a path for their development. The mentor can help them shape some pilot tests of new behaviors, and then later debrief that with them. I can think of an example of someone who wanted to step up to team leadership. She talked with her mentor about what would be required. One of the things that she wasn’t very good at was delegating effectively. She did a lot of prep around it, they talked around it, they talked about it, she watched somebody do it really well and then she stepped in. That was her experiment. She did it, and what happened? She got questions she didn’t expect. She got push back. She handled it, but the development really wasn’t going to take place conceptually, until she actually applied it. One of the things we do as mentors, another area of skill for us, is how we formulate our questions, and deliver those questions, and then really listen to them, is really a great tool. Not ask the question with an answer in mind. We also should have some developmental tools ready for them. Other people that they can speak with. Recommendations of books, articles, podcasts, journaling, these all complement the actions that they themselves use to grow new skills, but it should never be an assignment. The primary thing that’s happened between the mentor and the mentee is that conversation that spurs them. I have a philosophy about making every day a development day. If the mentor believes that it’s for both the mentor and the mentee, what they do in their conversation spurs the mentee to be thinking about these kinds of things every day. The regularity of meetings, not just when I’ve got a problem, but regular meetings, then gives me the next time as a mentee to bring it back, to talk it through. I’m eager to do that. Then we fine-tune, we reflect on what occurred, where’s the lesson in that? Reflection, by the way, is one of the most underutilized methods for development. When we reflect, and we think about what our positioning was, what we were feeling, we articulate that, and then we talk it through, that cements some learning, and actually gives you motivation for what could be the next thing. Those are some of the things. A long, long list of what skills mentors can develop for themselves. That’s the front end of a number of great things that a mentor can do.

帕特里克温迪，你觉得讲亲身经历的故事怎么样?作为导师，在你的学员经历过程中与他们分享你的经历。我之所以问这个问题，是因为我最近和一位职业生涯非常成功的导师进行了交谈。这个导师正在指导一个年轻人，当我说年轻，年轻的职业生涯，专业，有一个非常光明的未来。在工作的头几年就做出了惊人的成绩。当我和这位导师交谈时，他是我的一个朋友，他有点挣扎，我觉得我有所有这些经历，她带着一些挑战来找导师，他说，“哦，我也有类似的经历。15年前，我有过这样的经历，我就是这样处理的。”你觉得在导师关系中加入个人经历和故事怎么样?我只是好奇。当你谈到这个的时候，它触动了我，我很好奇你是怎么想的。

温迪我想说的是，明智地引入你的个人经历。如果这成为常规模式，你基本上是在让学员知道，像我那样做。或者你对他们说:“看看我是怎么做到的，你从中吸取了什么教训?”我认为这很好，因为他们想知道你是谁，你做过什么。首先，问一些问题，让他们思考这段经历，以及可能会有什么不同，或者他们会如何应对。做一些探索性的问题。如果在你这么做之后你的故事仍然适用，那就给他们一些故事。不要把太多时间花在你的东西上。他们是谈话的主角。他们是明星，在那里他们能看到事情的发展。 I’ve seen too many times, there’s a lot of mentoring programs that I come into. It’s their second or third round in the company because the first couple rounds didn’t take. It is sometimes because the mentors do not understand the right way to do it. They go with what their gut tells them to do, so they draw on that story. Her stories, I’m sure, are fabulous. I would love to hear them. Yet, don’t start with that, and be judicious.

帕特里克:您刚才谈到了组织内部的导师计划。许多组织现在都在建立导师项目。当他们听这一集的时候，很多人都有导师项目已经成功了，或者像你说的，多年来有过很多次迭代。很多人现在只是在想，“我需要在我的组织里创建一个导师项目。”我觉得，组织成员的成长和发展从来没有像今天这样重要和关键。我敢说，世界上每一家公司，或者很多公司都在关注，我们如何在我们的组织中培养和成长我们的人才?你觉得什么是任何结构中最重要的部分，我用结构化这个词。也许这个词不太合适，但是有一个导师项目，一个正式的，结构化的，不管你怎么说，但是一个组织内部的项目。在你参与过很多辅导项目的经验中，你有没有什么能脱颖而出的，这是几个领域，为组织建立辅导项目，帮助公司重组，以一种新的方式和新的视角看待他们的辅导项目，从一个新的角度，有没有什么对你来说很突出的，这是任何成功的辅导项目的一个非常重要的部分?你对观众有什么建议吗?

温迪是的，谢谢你的问题。在我得到答案的大部分之前，我要给大家一点鼓点。

帕特里克我喜欢它。

温迪这就是我想说的话。你需要做好很多方面。你需要知道你想要达到的目的。你需要一个有远见的人，来领导这件事。不能让实习生来做，因为这不会花费我们太多，所以，让实习生来做吧。相信我，我遇到过这种情况。你需要有程序设计。你需要知道如何筛选参与者，配对。你需要为所有参与者提供工具。你需要导师的培训，启动，临时会议，所有这些都需要做好。 Let me just say this, that’s the drum roll. After all of that is set in place, and set to go, the success of the program largely hinges on the mentors themselves. The achievements accrued rests with the ability of the mentor. My answer is, it is the nurturing and development of mentors that I consider to be the most important among all the important pieces. Yes, the mentors have many years of experience, and that counts for a lot, but it’s not sufficient. For any role that we do in a company, or anywhere in life, an individual needs to have their skills cultivated, whether they are an engineer, a marketing associate, or a podcast interviewer. What makes us think we can simply go into that position of mentor and know how to do it well? This is the reason why many programs, actually, 70% of companies have mentoring programs, and more than 50% of their programs fail. That’s why in the past they have failed, but it’s getting better and better. The other piece of this is, even on the relationship part, if you just think of it as a relationship, over the last two to three decades, there’s been a premium paid on all kinds of books and ideas out there about how to build relationships, better ways to interacting with your spouse, a parent, and [unintelligible 00:22:18] did a whole thing on how to develop with a friend. This needs to be very thoughtful, and we need to nurture and develop our mentors. That’s my number one thing.

帕特里克温迪，我们已经讨论了有效的导师，以及真正应该关注的是什么。尤其是在行为方面，并为这些公开的对话提供空间。根据你的经验，你能分享一些关于无效指导的见解吗?也许是一些错误，或者是要避免的事情，或者是哪些重点领域可能会造成无效的指导关系?

温迪我喜欢这个问题。如果我给你列出一长串无效的做法，我将谈论我自己的历史，(笑)因为我们都犯过这些错误。

帕特里克是的，是的。

温迪我们希望导师为学员展开的过程是，在学员遇到不同挑战时帮助他们。对于导师来说也是如此。顺便说一下，即使我们作为导师做了一些无效的事情，我们在这件事上也是为了学习。对于一个公司来说，指导项目的巨大好处之一是，导师们获得了所有这些技能，并学到了很多东西。当我们谈到无效行为时，我们有很多无效行为。这里有一些。有些事情是我们期望被指导者在哪里，讲述我们自己的故事，好像这应该是模型。这整件事，推销，大喊大叫，我明白了。我经常和导师见面，有时在每月的会议上，有一个导师走了进来，他很沮丧。“我每次都和她讨论这个问题，但她不明白。 She won’t do it.” He keeps harping back to that. I said, “Are you asking questions about what’s driving her? Are you asking her what assumptions she’s making? Are you asking her what she’s dealing with here, or are you just being direct?” Being directive, telling, selling, yelling, not a good approach. Those are also, the other thing is not anticipating some bumps in the relationship. Experienced mentors know that bumps occur, for all kinds of reasons. You could have, it feels sluggish. Where’s our momentum? I don’t relate to this person. Gosh, they’re asking me about all kinds of things that seem outside the realm. Those are all normal. I want the mentors out there to hear this. Those are normal things, and you can address them. There are specific ways to address all kinds of mentoring relationship issues.

帕特里克这是很重要的一点，在师徒关系中并不是每件事都一帆风顺。我们非常需要耐心。我觉得导师，这又回到了你刚才所说的指导或指导项目最重要的部分，就是培养和发展导师。因为当你提出导师或导师项目这个词时，我觉得这个词带来了很多期望。这是一个成功导师的形象，或者他们的行为方式，或者他们如何对待指导。我真的很喜欢培养和发展导师的想法，让他们在对话中，在情境中，在导师的角色中感到舒适。接下来的一个问题是，多长时间，我不知道这个问题是否有答案，但根据你的经验，一个新加入指导项目的人需要多长时间才能真正感到自信，变得精通，或者真正有信心成为一名导师?是一个月吗?是一年吗?是五年吗? I guess it’s different for everyone, but what do you see in your experience in how much time it takes to develop mentors?

温迪这是个很有趣的问题。对我来说，回答这个问题的原因是，我在这个项目中工作了20年，我能够看着导师们在每一个周期中成长。我想他们中没有人做过20年的导师，也许一到两年。我能看到他们。他们是学习和发展领域的人，人力资源主管，等等。我们要说他们已经占上风了。这取决于他们的风格。有些人是性格类型的，或者是发展导向的，是好的倾听者等等。我认为，当你是新人的时候，至少需要两次指导周期，才能真正掌握指导技能，(笑)这样你就不会受到打击。另一方面，我也不喜欢那些一直这样做的人，当我在最后问他们:“你从这次经历中学到了什么?” They’re like, “Well, it was very pleasant, but I really didn’t learn much new.” I’m like, “Okay, guys, wait a second here. Set a goal for yourself as you do each new mentoring relationship. Set a goal.” It could be based on the difference that that person represents for you, or some new thing that you have been wanting to learn about in neuroscience, or conversational intelligence that you’re going to put to use, and you’re going to hone that skill. I think it’s an ongoing process, and it goes on for as long as you have that curiosity, but I think two good cycles, I think after that you’re feeling pretty good.

帕特里克温迪，你说过要专门写一本关于指导和指导的书，跟我们谈谈那本书吧。它的标题，以及读者对它的期望。

温迪:书名是《成功指导的10个步骤》，出版商是美国人才发展协会。他们是知道师徒关系应该发生什么的人。正如我之前提到的，它不是10个连续的步骤，但它真的告诉读者，它给了他们指导的核心和灵魂，指导的敏感性。我主要是对导师说的。我告诉他们，“这本书是给你的。”谁能让这些神奇的事情发生在另一个人身上?这本书是为你而写的，可以帮助你度过难关。它确定了开始关系的方式。如何创造安全感和信任，如何让它不仅合乎逻辑，而且合乎心理。它提供了很多工具。 I can’t remember. There might be 39 different types of tools in the book that help you all the way through. It helps you identify how you can help a mentee, once they are getting more skillful, how to then influence others. It helps you understand there’s a beginning, a middle, and an end where you consolidate learnings. It is also a goal-driven process, and you’re flexibly goal-driven. You’re not like, “This is it. This is all we’re going to talk about.” You may well end up, after three months, taking off in another direction because of the discovery that is taking place between the two of you. It’s flexibly goal-driven.

帕特里克温迪，首先，谢谢你今天花时间和我在一起。我真的很欣赏你对这种有意识的指导过程的看法。你所有的经历和你的旅程，在很多方面都非常鼓舞人心，特别是在你创建的这个20年的项目中，你能够看到发展，第一手地学习所有这些真正有意义的技能，第一手的经验，你已经能够帮助并融入到你在组织中所做的很多工作中，帮助开发项目，为组织提供成功的指导。观众如何看待你?对于今天的听众来说，想要了解你，联系你，最好的方法是什么?他们应该去哪里?

温迪最好的方法是访问我的网站，网址是wendyaxelrodphd.com。如果你刚刚找到了Wendy Axelrod，你可以找到其他人，wendyaxelrodphd.com。

帕特里克:完美。我们将在这里的博客文章中链接。温蒂，再次感谢你今天与我共度时光，分享你的个人故事，以及你对成功项目和成功导师的看法。我真的很喜欢把导师的培养和发展作为成功项目中最重要的部分的想法。特别感谢你今天花时间和我分享你的见解。

温迪我很感激这次谈话，也学到了很多。谢谢你！